Transcript

Host: This is “On The Line,” and I’m Eric Felten. In a speech at the United States Holocaust Museum, President George W. Bush called for an end to the genocide being committed against the people of Sudan's western Darfur region. Attacks on villages in Darfur have left hundreds of thousands dead and driven more than two million people into refugee camps. Mr. Bush says that Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir has failed to stop the killing:

President Bush: "Sudan's government reached an agreement with the United Nations to allow three thousand U-N troops and their equipment into the country to support the A-U force. The world’s heard these promises from Sudan before. President Bashir's record has been to promise cooperation while finding new ways to subvert and obstruct the U-N’s efforts to bring peace to his country. The time for promises is over. President Bashir must act."

Host: The violence in Darfur includes widespread rape as well as murder of civilians. Much of it has been committed by Arab militias known as the janjaweed, supported by the government of Sudan. U-S Deputy Secretary of State John Negroponte called on both President al-Bashir and Sudanese rebel groups to abide by existing peace agreements:

Deputy Secretary Negroponte: "The government of Sudan must disarm the janjaweed militias, the Arab militias, that we all know could not exist without the Sudanese government's active support. And all non-signatory rebel groups must cease their attacks, put down their arms, and come to the negotiating table."

Host: President Bush said that Sudan's government must end its support for the janjaweed, reach out to rebel leaders, and allow humanitarian aid to reach the people of Darfur:

President Bush: "If President Bashir does not fulfill the steps I outlined above in a short period of time, my administration will take the following steps -- first, the Department of Treasury will tighten U-S economic sanctions on Sudan."

Host: Is U-S pressure enough to make a difference in Darfur, and what should other nations be doing? Joining us from Capitol Hill to talk about Darfur is Congressman Donald Payne, chairman of the U-S House of Representatives Subcommittee on Africa. Welcome, Congressman Payne. Perhaps we could start by talking a little bit about how did the whole killing and crisis in Darfur get started?

Payne: What happened was that a small group of men attacked an army garrison. The government of Khartoum then used that as an excuse, then, to have this terrible bombing exercise. Then they enlisted the Janjaweed to come in on the ground, and that's when the killing and the burning and the raping and the torturing of the Darfurians to push them totally off their land -- which they successfully did.

Host: The people being raped, murdered, displaced in Darfur are themselves a largely Muslim population, and yet we haven't seen much action by the Organization of the Islamic Conference or the Arab League. Where have they been?

Payne: Where is the Arab League? We're asking the Arab League to step forward and to use their influence to attempt to have a solution to the problem. The Arab League has been silent. The Congressional Black Caucus had a meeting with the Arab League about six months ago, and we intend to have another meeting with them. They have not contributed financially to the peacekeeping effort. They have not tried to use their influence with Bashir, the president of Sudan, and we're very disappointed even at those Arab countries that are in the League that are close to the U.S., like Egypt, which has done absolutely nothing in -- And President Mubarak has a tremendous amount of influence in Sudan. He has done virtually nothing to assist in coming up with a solution.

Host: What has the U-S approach to putting pressure on Sudan been?

Payne: Well, the U-S has really been at the forefront. The -- A tremendous amount of financial assistance have come from the U.S. -- maybe three hundred million dollars probably last year alone -- with assistance to food aid, of course. Many of the humanitarian groups' medical supplies and food aid comes from U-S A-I-D. We certainly have been assisting the very small, beleaguered Africa Union force, which is much too small and much too ill-equipped to do the job. The U-S has, in some of our opinions, not done enough. We think that the Bush administration could put more pressure on Khartoum. You may know that Sudan said several -- about a year ago -- that they wanted to cooperate with the Bush administration in their war on terror and that they would use their information gathering to assist the U.S. in the fight against Al-Qaeda. … Some of us feel in the Congress that because of this offer by Sudan, that our government has not pushed the government of Sudan hard enough in trying to get them to comply.

Host: What options does the U-S have if they wanted to get serious and get tougher on Sudan?

Payne: I think that we need to consider no-fly zones. A no-fly zone was in legislation that I introduced over two years ago. However, the then-Republican Congress would not allow it to come out of committee. And so I'm going to once again introduce a no-fly-zone legislation, which would just simply say that the government of Sudan cannot use its bombers to go into areas of Darfur and terrorize the people. What they've done lately is to paint some of their planes white to make them appear as if they are U-N planes, and they are bringing in weapons through that method. I think that we could have a no-fly zone. I think that we could pressure China in using its tremendous power and influence. You know, China is one of the biggest investors in Sudan. They have the oil rights, and China has a significant influence in Sudan.

Host: Why hasn't the United Nations been more active in Sudan and taken more serious action there?

Payne: It's simple. China is on the -- is one of the five permanent members of the Security Council. And from the beginning, China has threatened and has voted against strong resolutions. Being a permanent member of the Security Council, they have unusual power and have used that to have only watered-down resolutions coming out of the Security Council, which, as you know, it has to clear the Security Council -- first, the five permanent members, then the other ten members, and then to the general body. So if it can't get out of the five permanent members, it's not going anywhere. So that's been a very strong tool that China has used in the Security Council, and that's why there's been such a lack of progress there.

Host: Congressman Payne, you've called for some sort of military action in Sudan. Is the U-S really in any position to take any kind of military action against an Islamic country?

Payne: Well, I think that, you know, the people that they're killing are Islamic people, so I can't see where we could make it an issue of us versus Islam, in my opinion. I think that what I'm talking about in military action is not to have U.S. troops go and invade Sudan. I'm talking about a no-fly zone, where these are unmanned drones and U-2-type spy equipment that can, unmanned, prevent Sudan from intruding into the refugee areas.

Host: And what has the U-S Congress been doing about Sudan?

Payne: Well, as you know, the administration are the ones who formulate foreign policy. However, the Congress have various ways of impacting that foreign policy. We have the purse strings, for example. We -- And so what we attempt to do is when the policy is announced by the administration, we then attempt to modify or suggest or augment policy that we think is going in the wrong direction or not going far enough. And so we try to use the power of the Congress to persuade the administration to modify its policies and move forward with a modified plan. We think that more can be done. We will continue to press the administration to step up to the plate, to try to pressure China more, to try to have tougher negotiations with the government of Sudan. I do think that we have aces in the deck that we really haven't thrown out.

Host: Congressman Donald Payne, thanks for taking the time to speak with us today. Representative Donald Payne is chairman of the House Subcommittee on Africa, and he joined us from his office on Capitol Hill.

Host: And now, in studio, we're joined by Sulayman Nyang, a professor and chairman of the African Studies Department at Howard University, and Gordon Chang, author of the book “The Coming Collapse of China.” Welcome. Thanks for joining us today. Sulayman Nyang, we've had a number of U-N resolutions. We’ve had sanctions, all this pressure on Sudan, yet Sudan continues to act against people in Darfur. What is Sudan after?

Nyang: Well, I think the Sudanese are really interested in protecting their own internal revolution, because we have to understand the circumstances which led to the rise of the government under Bashir. They came out of the Islamic National Front. They were an Islamic liberation group that subvertedly captured power from a government that was democratically elected -- the Sadiq al Mahdi government -- and since they took power, they have tried to control it themselves. Now, what is interesting with Sudan is the second factor. The fact that the Sudanese have now acquired oil wells, and they are supported by China, primarily, and many other countries that need oil. And this has really created a very difficult situation for the opposition in Sudan, because they are dealing with a government that is much more powerful in terms of resources and a government that is also supported by international forces that can work on behalf of Sudan and the United Nations Security Council, which complicates matters. So you have a domestic problem at home, where the opposition is very much stymied because of limited resources, and then, at the same time, you have international support that allows Sudan to somehow wiggle its way under international resistance.

Host: Well, Gordon Chang, let's talk about that international support. Amnesty International came out with a recent report charging that not only is China and Russia not cracking down on Sudan, but that in fact they're supplying arms to Sudan.

Chang: Well, they certainly are, and that's part of the Chinese calculus with regard to Sudan. Of course they want the energy, but they also want Sudan as a market and a market for both big arms, like planes, but also light arms. And, of course, China wants Sudan's vote in the United Nations, in the World Health Organization, and all these other bodies, so China really has a very purposeful strategy of attracting African nations to its cause, and Sudan is a very important part of Africa.

Host: Let's see what Deputy Secretary of State Negroponte had to say about the Chinese and Sudan recently.

Negroponte: I think the Chinese have helped us and the international community generally by conveying to the government of Sudan the importance of it complying with the wishes and the mandates of the international community. And I think the fact that China, which does have a multifaceted relationship with the country of Sudan -- that it should convey that kind of message is a very constructive thing.

Host: Gordon Chang, is China being helpful and sending constructive messages to Sudan? What do we make of that?

Chang: China's position has changed -- at least its position on the surface. But fundamentally, it hasn't, because China could take steps that would probably end up in stopping the genocide in Darfur, but it's not willing to do so because it values its relationship with Sudan. So while China has changed a little bit, it hasn't really changed enough, and there's certainly much more that it can do. One thing it could do is to stop blocking the United States and Britain from increasing the sanctions on Sudan. Sanctions by themselves are not going to solve the problem, but they're a necessary precondition to restoring order.

Host: Sulayman Nyang, how much influence would China have over Sudan if they were going to be serious about supporting U-N sanctions against Sudan?

Nyang: Well, the Chinese are caught in a bind. Actually, it's a very paradoxical situation that exists between China and Sudan, China and the U-S And this is part of the global, regional, and local crisis of the Sudanese. One, the Chinese recently made some moves -- in fact, there are reports in the media that, as a result of U-S coaxing and some other Western coaxing, the Chinese authorities sent some delegates to Sudan, and that delegate was supposed to have -- you know, affect change in terms of Sudanese policy. But most of these scholars and commentators are very skeptical that Bashir is going to go along with the program, because the crisis you have in Sudan really is a crisis in Darfur, and the crisis in Darfur is very much related to the Nuba crisis and to the Beja crisis in eastern Sudan. Now, these groups have their own interests. I'm talking about the opposition. They have their own interests, and the manner in which they are able to negotiate with the Sudanese government is very much determined by the kind of support they get from outside. And the kind of support they get from outside is counterposed by the support of Russia and China to Sudan. So it's a very interesting kind of game. The other point that needs to be emphasized here is that when you look at the Sudanese situation, you have to recognize that the Sudanese have yielded, to some degree, to international pressure with respect to foreign troops in Sudan. Because remember, it was the African Union that was much represented. But the African Union is a weak force. It doesn't have biting teeth. It's a bulldog without teeth. And, of course, this is one of the reasons why getting the Chinese to come along strongly might help in terms of getting the Sudanese government not only to live up to the agreement with the Sudanese, which the Americans also contributed in bringing about. Because the former senator worked it out. But the other question is, to what extent can the Chinese be pressurized to do it?

Host: Well, let me ask Gordon Chang. There's been some effort in the U-S here to build pressure on China with regard to Sudan by pointing out that the Olympics are coming up and that participating in the Olympics in China is tainted because of China's support for Sudan and the genocide going on there. Mia Farrow, an actress and activist, has called this the genocide Olympics. Is that having any impact on China?

Chang: I certainly think that it has. I mean, because of the summer Olympics, there have been a number of groups that have announced boycotts. There are Tibetans. There are people who are against the harvesting of organs. There's the journalists. But the one announced boycott that has really gotten the attention not only of the Chinese but of Americans has been Darfur. And that's why the term "genocide Olympics" has really gained some currency recently. And we know that China is very concerned about it, because after Mia Farrow and her son wrote that piece which appeared in the Wall Street Journal in March, the Chinese ramped up their propaganda in People's Daily and in other media outlets. And right now China has also started to lobby in Washington to make sure that the United States does not become part of a boycott. So we can see that the reaction in Beijing has really been has really been quite sharp with regard to all those people who have been starting to call it the genocide Olympics.

Host: Sulayman Nyang, let's talk a little bit about some other organizations and what they've been doing about Sudan. We have the International Criminal Court recently issuing arrest warrants on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity in Sudan. And one of the people who had an arrest warrant put out against him is Ahmed Muhammed Harun, who had been a security official but who is now Sudan's Minister for Humanitarian Affairs. Is it accidental that he's put in this position of being in charge of humanitarian efforts in Sudan, or does the Sudanese government -- you know, trying to have control of what aid groups can and cannot be doing in Sudan by putting such a security official, somebody who's been involved in the killing, in that position?

Nyang: Well, I mean, that's one of the ironies of this whole diplo-- I mean, political posting. What we have to remember in the case of Sudan really is, one, the Sudanese government has serious opposition from within. There are groups that are clearly opposed to Sudan, and one of the great claims to fame of the Sudanese people of all the Africans and Arab countries, because Sudan is both African and Arab, is that the Sudanese have been the only country in Africa whose people stood firmly against military dictatorships. They've overthrown military dictatorships twice. General Abboud, who was the first military dictator, was kicked out by popular vote. General Gafaar Nimeri was also kicked out by popular vote. Bashir is very much aware of this, and that's one of the reasons why he's using all the resources at his disposal -- to preempt this destiny of a military overthrow. And the appointment of people like the gentleman you mentioned is just another way of trying to win -- I mean to win favors or international credibility because of humanitarian ties. But that's not going to change the condition. The water has been muddied, and no straining can change it.

Host: Well, Gordon Chang, we're just about out of time, but both the International Criminal Court and then we've had sanctions from the U-N. Where is international pressure going to go at this point, and what should U-S policy be in trying to bring some of that pressure about?

Chang: I think the United States has to press for increased sanctions in the United Nations. That's the only thing that's going to actually move things forward. As I mentioned, it isn't going to solve everything by itself, but really, without increased pressure, the Sudanese government is not going to do very much. And I think that Mia Farrow is absolutely right. The Beijing Olympics is a very, very sensitive spot for China, and so I think that there needs to be much more pressure on the part of ordinary citizens. Because with both tracks, both government and nongovernmental, I think that maybe we can get someplace.

Host: Well, I'm afraid that's all the time we have for today. But I'd like to thank my guests, Sulayman Nyang, professor and chairman of the African Studies Department at Howard University, and Gordon Chang, author of the book "The Coming Collapse of China." Before we go, I'd like to invite you to send us your questions or comments. You can reach us through our Website at www.voanews.com/ontheline. For "On The Line," I'm Eric Felten.